You are right. I am sorry I was wrong. I was responding to your response
to another statement, Michael, but I read it as the racism one.
Please forgive me. 
Zanna

On 12/7/13 5:46 PM, "McAvoy, Michael" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>To clarify, just in case, as another person here seems to have conflated
>idealism and racism:
>
>"7.  Believe that individuals can do little to bring about change in
>society:
>
>
>TB 46%
>Actual 28%"
>
>We perceive the typical student to be more idealistic than she thinks she
>is. Just sayin'. To be ageist, the "geezers" here, I don't really follow
>you well, but it reads nice.
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Teaching Breakfast List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
>Behalf Of Fleisher, P. Jay
>Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2013 11:00 AM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: Who is Entering Higher Ed?
>
>Hi Steve,
>Good to hear from you, as always.  Stop by "my office" in TLTC and we'll
>swap geezer stories.  If we ask Harry to join us, then the sciences will
>be well enough represented to contest your tongue-in-cheek approach to
>argumentation.
>Shalom,
>Jay
>
>________________________________________
>From: Teaching Breakfast List [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
>Gilbert, Steven
>Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 7:49 PM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: Who is Entering Higher Ed?
>
>Hi group:  I have been enjoying the exchange.
>
>
>
>A question.  What was the N for the TBers who responded to the survey?  I
>assume it was relatively small (20? 30?) and probably only representative
>of a very distinct subgroup of faculty.  If so, the reliability (and thus
>validity) of the data for the TBers may not justify broad inferences
>concerning generational differences between students and faculty!!!
>
>
>
>I suggest that more of you adopt my approach to argument:  start with the
>conclusions you prefer and then select data that appear to support them!
>There are some technical difficulties with this approach, but a dollop of
>denial and a pinch of self-delusion is all most of us need to become
>quite comfortable with it.
>
>
>
>These are perspectives that retirement engenders!
>
>
>
>Steve.
>
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>-------------------------------------
>Steven J. Gilbert, Ph.D.
>   Professor Emeritus of Psychology
>      State University of New York, College at Oneonta
>      [log in to unmask]
>      Home Page: http://employees.oneonta.edu/gilbersj/stevepage.htm
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>-------------------------------------
>________________________________________
>From: Teaching Breakfast List [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
>Fleisher, P. Jay
>Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 11:31 AM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: Who is Entering Higher Ed?
>
>Well put, Harry.  No surprise that perception separated by a full
>generation or more differs - its what would be expected. Different
>generations have different points of view, and life goes on.  I am
>disappointed by the apathy and ignorance (i.e. racism and sexism) in an
>age when everyone has instantaneous access to virtually everything with a
>simple keystroke.  And since you mentioned dinosaurs, let me confirm that
>in spite of the tools of science, some fail to accept the Age of Reptiles
>and the antiquity of the Earth - its contrary to what they were taught in
>Sunday School.  Trust me.  I bucked that current teaching Intro Geology -
>"who the hell does that guy think he is?", meaning me of course.
>How's that for stirring the pot?
>Jay Fleisher
>Emeritus
>
>________________________________________
>From: Teaching Breakfast List [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
>Pence, Harry
>Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 9:59 AM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: Who is Entering Higher Ed?
>
>Dear Friends,
>
>Perhaps part of the faculty response is due to our perception that youth
>(at least our own youth) was a time of innocence which we view through
>rose-colored glasses.  I must admit that when I was young, I floated
>through life in a cloud of self-absorption, ignoring most of the problems
>of the world around me.  Of course, that was a long time ago (when
>dinosaurs roamed the Earth), but I think that it has become increasingly
>difficult to ignore the outside world with each new generation.  I'm
>afraid that The Age of Innocence is dead.  Feel free to debate whether
>this is a good or bad thing.
>
>Harry
>
>P.S. This post may just signify that I am out of touch with the current
>generation of college teachers, in which case I apologize.The times they
>are a'changin.
>
>
>Harry E. Pence
>SUNY Distinguished Teaching Professor Emeritus SUNY Oneonta
>
>________________________________
>From: Teaching Breakfast List [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
>Nowak, Rhea
>Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 8:56 AM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: Who is Entering Higher Ed?
>
>My perception is that most faculty think racism is still a major problem,
>just as sexism still is.
>But that is just my perception...
>Best,
>Rhea
>
>Rhea Nowak
>Associate Professor of Art
>SUNY College at Oneonta
>Oneonta, NY
>(607) 436-2827
>
>From: <McKay>, Zanna
><[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>Reply-To: Teaching Breakfast List
><[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>Date: Friday, December 6, 2013 8:50 AM
>To: "[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>"
><[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>Subject: Re: Who is Entering Higher Ed?
>
>Yes, we were to answer what we thought they thought.
>However, if faculty think 'racism' is no longer a problem, it would be my
>guess that we might say students think that. As I said, just a thought.
>It can assist the development of a powerful learning community to
>consider those things we find most difficult to confront in ourselves and
>our students.
>
>It is not idealistic to think that racism is not a problem, it is racist.
>Zanna
>
>From: <McAvoy>, Michael
><[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>Reply-To: Teaching Breakfast List
><[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>Date: Thursday, December 5, 2013 1:19 PM
>To: "[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>"
><[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>Subject: Re: Who is Entering Higher Ed?
>
>I believe you are correct. That's how I responded (if I responded).
>
>We think they are more idealistic than they report.
>
>From: Teaching Breakfast List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
>Behalf Of Nowak, Rhea
>Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 10:55 AM
>To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Re: Who is Entering Higher Ed?
>
>In the survey I thought we were responding to what we thought were their
>perceptions.
>
>Rhea Nowak
>Associate Professor of Art
>SUNY College at Oneonta
>Oneonta, NY
>(607) 436-2827
>
>From: <McKay>, Zanna
><[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>Reply-To: Teaching Breakfast List
><[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>Date: Thursday, December 5, 2013 10:44 AM
>To: "[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>"
><[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>Subject: Re: Who is Entering Higher Ed?
>
>Or looking at discrimination, they are more aware of racial
>discrimination then we are.
>Just a thought...
>Zanna
>
>From: <Nowak>, Rhea
><[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>Reply-To: Teaching Breakfast List
><[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>Date: Thursday, December 5, 2013 10:03 AM
>To: "[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>"
><[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>Subject: Re: Who is Entering Higher Ed?
>
>So our students communicate to us they feel more overwhelmed than they
>actually do.
>We were pretty close on wanting to become accomplished in a performing
>arts and identify as white.
>They are more aware of racial discrimination than we think they are.
>They feel more empowered than we think they do.
>Am I reading this correctly?
>Thanks,
>Rhea
>
>Rhea Nowak
>Associate Professor of Art
>SUNY College at Oneonta
>Oneonta, NY
>(607) 436-2827
>
>From: <Greenberg>, Jim
><[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>Reply-To: Teaching Breakfast List
><[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>Date: Thursday, December 5, 2013 9:56 AM
>To: "[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>"
><[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>Subject: Who is Entering Higher Ed?
>
>TBers,
>
>A month  ago I sent out a survey asking members of this listserv what
>percentages of the entering undergraduate class (nationally) you believe
>meets the indicated criterion.  Here are the results vs. the actual
>numbers (based on CIRP data for Fall 2012) .
>
>
>
> 1.  Believe they will graduate in 4 years:
>
>TB 84%
>Actual 84%       (Nicely done group!)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 2.  Female students who felt overwhelmed by all they had to do:
>
>TB 66%
>Actual 41%
>
>
>
>
> 3.  Male students who felt overwhelmed by all they had to do:
>
>
>TB 57%
>Actual 18%
>
>
>
>
> 4.  Want to become accomplished in a performing art:
>
>
>TB  22%
>Actual 17%
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 5.  Identify as white:
>
>
>TB 78%
>Actual 70%
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 6.  Agree that "racial discrimination is no longer a major problem in
>America"
>
>
> TB 56%
>Actual 23%
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 7.  Believe that individuals can do little to bring about change in
>society:
>
>
>TB 46%
>Actual 28%
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Mr. James B.Greenberg
>Director Teaching, Learning, and Technology Center Milne Library SUNY
>Oneonta Oneonta, NY  13820
>
>Email: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>Phone: 607-436-2701
>Twitter:  greenbjb
>Blog: http://ctlaltpause.blogspot.com/