You are right. I am sorry I was wrong. I was responding to your response to another statement, Michael, but I read it as the racism one. Please forgive me. Zanna On 12/7/13 5:46 PM, "McAvoy, Michael" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >To clarify, just in case, as another person here seems to have conflated >idealism and racism: > >"7. Believe that individuals can do little to bring about change in >society: > > >TB 46% >Actual 28%" > >We perceive the typical student to be more idealistic than she thinks she >is. Just sayin'. To be ageist, the "geezers" here, I don't really follow >you well, but it reads nice. > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Teaching Breakfast List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On >Behalf Of Fleisher, P. Jay >Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2013 11:00 AM >To: [log in to unmask] >Subject: Re: Who is Entering Higher Ed? > >Hi Steve, >Good to hear from you, as always. Stop by "my office" in TLTC and we'll >swap geezer stories. If we ask Harry to join us, then the sciences will >be well enough represented to contest your tongue-in-cheek approach to >argumentation. >Shalom, >Jay > >________________________________________ >From: Teaching Breakfast List [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of >Gilbert, Steven >Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 7:49 PM >To: [log in to unmask] >Subject: Re: Who is Entering Higher Ed? > >Hi group: I have been enjoying the exchange. > > > >A question. What was the N for the TBers who responded to the survey? I >assume it was relatively small (20? 30?) and probably only representative >of a very distinct subgroup of faculty. If so, the reliability (and thus >validity) of the data for the TBers may not justify broad inferences >concerning generational differences between students and faculty!!! > > > >I suggest that more of you adopt my approach to argument: start with the >conclusions you prefer and then select data that appear to support them! >There are some technical difficulties with this approach, but a dollop of >denial and a pinch of self-delusion is all most of us need to become >quite comfortable with it. > > > >These are perspectives that retirement engenders! > > > >Steve. > > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >------------------------------------- >Steven J. Gilbert, Ph.D. > Professor Emeritus of Psychology > State University of New York, College at Oneonta > [log in to unmask] > Home Page: http://employees.oneonta.edu/gilbersj/stevepage.htm >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >------------------------------------- >________________________________________ >From: Teaching Breakfast List [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of >Fleisher, P. Jay >Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 11:31 AM >To: [log in to unmask] >Subject: Re: Who is Entering Higher Ed? > >Well put, Harry. No surprise that perception separated by a full >generation or more differs - its what would be expected. Different >generations have different points of view, and life goes on. I am >disappointed by the apathy and ignorance (i.e. racism and sexism) in an >age when everyone has instantaneous access to virtually everything with a >simple keystroke. And since you mentioned dinosaurs, let me confirm that >in spite of the tools of science, some fail to accept the Age of Reptiles >and the antiquity of the Earth - its contrary to what they were taught in >Sunday School. Trust me. I bucked that current teaching Intro Geology - >"who the hell does that guy think he is?", meaning me of course. >How's that for stirring the pot? >Jay Fleisher >Emeritus > >________________________________________ >From: Teaching Breakfast List [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of >Pence, Harry >Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 9:59 AM >To: [log in to unmask] >Subject: Re: Who is Entering Higher Ed? > >Dear Friends, > >Perhaps part of the faculty response is due to our perception that youth >(at least our own youth) was a time of innocence which we view through >rose-colored glasses. I must admit that when I was young, I floated >through life in a cloud of self-absorption, ignoring most of the problems >of the world around me. Of course, that was a long time ago (when >dinosaurs roamed the Earth), but I think that it has become increasingly >difficult to ignore the outside world with each new generation. I'm >afraid that The Age of Innocence is dead. Feel free to debate whether >this is a good or bad thing. > >Harry > >P.S. This post may just signify that I am out of touch with the current >generation of college teachers, in which case I apologize.The times they >are a'changin. > > >Harry E. Pence >SUNY Distinguished Teaching Professor Emeritus SUNY Oneonta > >________________________________ >From: Teaching Breakfast List [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of >Nowak, Rhea >Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 8:56 AM >To: [log in to unmask] >Subject: Re: Who is Entering Higher Ed? > >My perception is that most faculty think racism is still a major problem, >just as sexism still is. >But that is just my perception... >Best, >Rhea > >Rhea Nowak >Associate Professor of Art >SUNY College at Oneonta >Oneonta, NY >(607) 436-2827 > >From: <McKay>, Zanna ><[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> >Reply-To: Teaching Breakfast List ><[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> >Date: Friday, December 6, 2013 8:50 AM >To: "[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>" ><[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> >Subject: Re: Who is Entering Higher Ed? > >Yes, we were to answer what we thought they thought. >However, if faculty think 'racism' is no longer a problem, it would be my >guess that we might say students think that. As I said, just a thought. >It can assist the development of a powerful learning community to >consider those things we find most difficult to confront in ourselves and >our students. > >It is not idealistic to think that racism is not a problem, it is racist. >Zanna > >From: <McAvoy>, Michael ><[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> >Reply-To: Teaching Breakfast List ><[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> >Date: Thursday, December 5, 2013 1:19 PM >To: "[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>" ><[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> >Subject: Re: Who is Entering Higher Ed? > >I believe you are correct. That's how I responded (if I responded). > >We think they are more idealistic than they report. > >From: Teaching Breakfast List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On >Behalf Of Nowak, Rhea >Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 10:55 AM >To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> >Subject: Re: Who is Entering Higher Ed? > >In the survey I thought we were responding to what we thought were their >perceptions. > >Rhea Nowak >Associate Professor of Art >SUNY College at Oneonta >Oneonta, NY >(607) 436-2827 > >From: <McKay>, Zanna ><[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> >Reply-To: Teaching Breakfast List ><[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> >Date: Thursday, December 5, 2013 10:44 AM >To: "[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>" ><[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> >Subject: Re: Who is Entering Higher Ed? > >Or looking at discrimination, they are more aware of racial >discrimination then we are. >Just a thought... >Zanna > >From: <Nowak>, Rhea ><[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> >Reply-To: Teaching Breakfast List ><[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> >Date: Thursday, December 5, 2013 10:03 AM >To: "[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>" ><[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> >Subject: Re: Who is Entering Higher Ed? > >So our students communicate to us they feel more overwhelmed than they >actually do. >We were pretty close on wanting to become accomplished in a performing >arts and identify as white. >They are more aware of racial discrimination than we think they are. >They feel more empowered than we think they do. >Am I reading this correctly? >Thanks, >Rhea > >Rhea Nowak >Associate Professor of Art >SUNY College at Oneonta >Oneonta, NY >(607) 436-2827 > >From: <Greenberg>, Jim ><[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> >Reply-To: Teaching Breakfast List ><[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> >Date: Thursday, December 5, 2013 9:56 AM >To: "[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>" ><[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> >Subject: Who is Entering Higher Ed? > >TBers, > >A month ago I sent out a survey asking members of this listserv what >percentages of the entering undergraduate class (nationally) you believe >meets the indicated criterion. Here are the results vs. the actual >numbers (based on CIRP data for Fall 2012) . > > > > 1. Believe they will graduate in 4 years: > >TB 84% >Actual 84% (Nicely done group!) > > > > > > > > 2. Female students who felt overwhelmed by all they had to do: > >TB 66% >Actual 41% > > > > > 3. Male students who felt overwhelmed by all they had to do: > > >TB 57% >Actual 18% > > > > > 4. Want to become accomplished in a performing art: > > >TB 22% >Actual 17% > > > > > > > > 5. Identify as white: > > >TB 78% >Actual 70% > > > > > > > 6. Agree that "racial discrimination is no longer a major problem in >America" > > > TB 56% >Actual 23% > > > > > > > 7. Believe that individuals can do little to bring about change in >society: > > >TB 46% >Actual 28% > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Mr. James B.Greenberg >Director Teaching, Learning, and Technology Center Milne Library SUNY >Oneonta Oneonta, NY 13820 > >Email: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> >Phone: 607-436-2701 >Twitter: greenbjb >Blog: http://ctlaltpause.blogspot.com/