Harry and Group: Interesting. There is likely a good deal of support for the idea that (a) TAs who are carefully selected and well trained, should be able to work closely with students - listening, diagnosing, suggesting alternative ideas and approaches, etc. More controversial (b) is whether TAs should evaluate students' work, and translate that evaluation into a grade. Finally (c), there is the question of whether the grades issued by TAs should ever "count" toward the students' final grade.
I would advocate for (a) and (b) under almost any circumstance in which TAs are selected and trained by teachers to their own satisfaction.
In my case, the actual quizzes administered and graded by the TAs were objective (multiple-choice) tests, with scoring keys worked out in advance in meetings among the teacher and TAs. In such cases, I advocate for (c) as well.
Steve.
Steven J. Gilbert, Ph.D.
Professor of Psychology
State University of New York, College at Oneonta
416 Fitzelle Hall, Oneonta, NY 13820
Phone: 607-436-2557 FAX: 607-436-3753
E-MAIL: [log in to unmask]
Office Hours: On Sabbatical Leave during Fall 2010 semester
Web Address: http://www.oneonta.edu/faculty/gilbersj/Stevepage.htm
Psychology Department Web Site:
http://www.oneonta.edu/academics/psyweb/
From: Teaching Breakfast List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Pence, Harry ([log in to unmask])
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2011 8:40 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Student Grading Question + plagiarism
Dear Steve and Janet,
I agree that the policy should be revised, but in the interim I thought I would share the way that I got around the local regulations. I believe that it is important for students learning chemistry to not only work problems but have someone look over their work and suggest how they can improve. I had too many students in general chemistry (100 plus per semester) to allow me to do this, so I used a teaching assistant. When I started a new assistant, I would have a serious discussion about what to look for in grading student work (HINT: the correct answer is less important than the process) and how to handle large numbers of papers without going insane. Then the TA would grade the papers marking a grade on each paper as a fraction, number of problems attempted/number of problems correct. I also think it is very important to recognize serious attempts, not just right answers.
You may say that I was violating college policy, but I avoided this by never looking at the grades that the TA gave. At first, I didn't tell this to the students in the class, but I soon decided that this was intellectually dishonest. To my surprise and pleasure, I found that it didn't seem to make any difference to most of the students whether or not I looked at the grade; they appreciated someone suggesting how they could improve their work. Of course, I was also available for office hours where I would give one on one help, but students really liked the homework as a way to keep themselves disciplined.
Just to avoid confusion, I informed the Administration of what I was doing. When they said I violated the college policy, I pointed out that the grade on the homework was in no way related to the grade in the course, and so, strictly speaking, it was a non-grade. This caused considerable confusion, but eventually it was begrudgingly accepted that the grade the TAs were assigning was not a grade in the literal sense. (I think I was channeling Bill Clinton on this one.)
As Hemingway might have said, "This thing of the cat, there is more than one way of skinning it."
Since I received a positive comment (you know who you are) about my post of the URL of a blog about plagiarism, I will add another suggestion in the same vein.
http://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/university_of_venus/are_students_intentionally_plagiarising
Cordially,
Harry
Harry E. Pence
SUNY Distinguished Teaching Professor Emeritus
SUNY Oneonta
________________________________
From: Teaching Breakfast List [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Nepkie, Janet ([log in to unmask])
Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2011 9:02 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Student Grading Question
Steve,
I agree with you completely. We need to update our rules for TAs. I made a proposal to do so to the Committee on Instruction last year and provided them with undergraduate TA descriptions from colleges throughout the country to allow comparison with our own rules. It was my impression that the Committee on Instruction was working on this question, but I haven't heard anything about that possibility in recent months.
I'd be glad to share my recommendations with you if that would be helpful.
Thanks,
Janet
Dr. J. Nepkie
SUNY Distinguished Service Professor
Professor of Music and Music Industry
Fine Arts 145
State University College
Oneonta, NY 13820
tele: (607) 436 3425
fax: 607 436 2718
[log in to unmask]
From: "Gilbert, Steven ([log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>)" <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Reply-To: Teaching Breakfast List <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 15:20:32 -0500
To: "[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>" <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Subject: Re: Student Grading Question
Group: I think it is time for SUNY-Oneonta to revisit the range of activities permitted of Teaching Assistants. The current rules are unduly restrictive, in my opinion.
During the late 1970s and early 1980s, I employed a large number of TAs in my Introductory Psychology classes. About ½ of the points that counted toward students' grades were earned by taking quizzes - one quiz per chapter of the text (for a total of 13). There were 4 alternate forms of each quiz. At designated times during the week, students could go to a room in which the quizzes were administered. A TA would consult a spreadsheet to determine which forms of the quiz the student had not taken, and randomly choose a version of the quiz from among those forms. The student would be given a copy of the quiz, find a seat, and take it. A second TA monitored the process. When a student completed a quiz, she brought it to the monitoring TA, who accompanied her next door, where a group of 2-4 additional TAs were waiting. The student would sit down with a TA, who would quickly grade the quiz (as the student watched). Then the two would spend time going over the questions the student missed, discussing both content and quiz-taking strategy. Afterwards, the student returned to the first room and handed the quiz to the TA at the desk, who recorded the grade on the master spreadsheet. At that point, the student had the option of considering the quiz-process for the chapter complete, or taking an alternate form of the quiz, with the understanding that the final quiz grade would be the mean of scores earned on each form of the quiz taken by the student.
Feedback from students (both formal and informal) was extremely positive. During the 3 or 4 years I used this system, there did not appear to be a single instance of cheating (by TAs or students). The TAs appreciated the responsibility and the trust they were given, and the students respected a process that they saw was designed to help and benefit them. It seemed to be a win (student) - win (TA) - win (teacher) - win (college) situation.
Of course, such a system would be entirely forbidden under today's college rules governing TAs. I don't think it should be.
Steve.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven J. Gilbert, Ph.D.
Professor of Psychology
State University of New York, College at Oneonta
[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Phone: 607-436-2557 Office: FITZ 416
Home Page: http://employees.oneonta.edu/gilbersj/stevepage.htm
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
________________________________
From: Teaching Breakfast List [[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On Behalf Of Nepkie, Janet ([log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>)
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2011 1:27 PM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Student Grading Question
Friends,
It has been brought to my attention that my previous posting about FERPA regulations was difficult to read due to formatting problems. In an effort to improve that situation, I've sent three attachments with what I believe are clear explanations of the FERPA regs.
It seems to me that our own college has created policies that go far beyond any rules regarding student privacy that are imposed by FERPA. There may be excellent reasons for our local policies. It's also possible, of course, that it's time for us to take a fresh look at our local policies. A review of local policies might allow us, for example, to strengthen the learning experience of Teaching Assistants by making it possible for them to do more than our current policies allow.
Of course, Maureen Artale, our Registrar, is an expert on all FERPA rules and college policies. If we have additional questions about FERPA, I know, from personal experience, that she can answer them.
Thanks
Janet
Dr. J. Nepkie
SUNY Distinguished Service Professor
Professor of Music and Music Industry
Fine Arts 145
State University College
Oneonta, NY 13820
tele: (607) 436 3425
fax: 607 436 2718
[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
From: "Helser, Terry ([log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>)" <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Reply-To: Teaching Breakfast List <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 14:12:40 -0500
To: "[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>" <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Subject: Re: Student Grading Question
Well said, Janet. This is a nuanced, but clear and important distinction that seems lacking in the FH statement, unless I misread it. That is what I have always done in these labs. They have input and I report relevant, anonymous results to the evaluated teams, but I and/or the course instructor give their grades. Agreed?
Cheers!
Terry
________________________________
From: Janet Nepke <[log in to unmask]<UrlBlockedError.aspx>>
Reply-To: Teaching Breakfast List <[log in to unmask]<UrlBlockedError.aspx>>
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 13:52:12 -0500
To: <[log in to unmask]<UrlBlockedError.aspx>>
Subject: Re: Student Grading Question
I am in total agreement with Joanne. Teachers have the responsibility and
authority to give grades. Students may evaluate the work of other
students, and we may judge them on their ability to evaluate, but only
teachers should make evaluations that lead to grades.
Example: A small group of my students must post questions each week about
ethical practices of the music and entertainment industry. The rest of
the students are required to answer the question based on criteria I've
established, and then the original group is required to evaluate the
answers received. I often comment to students on their success or lack of
success at each step of this assignment, and I give the final grade for
the entire exercise.
Thanks,
Janet
Dr. J. Nepkie
SUNY Distinguished Service Professor
Professor of Music and Music Industry
Fine Arts 145
State University College
Oneonta, NY 13820
tele: (607) 436 3425
fax: 607 436 2718
[log in to unmask]<UrlBlockedError.aspx>
On 2/10/11 1:21 PM, "Curran, Joanne ([log in to unmask])<UrlBlockedError.aspx>"
<[log in to unmask]<UrlBlockedError.aspx>> wrote:
>Education majors can practice evaluating and assigning grades without
>actually grading their peers. I think having students give an evaluation
>in labs or for oral reports or other projects is great, but my read on
>the FH is that those should not be influencing final course grades.
>
>Joanne Curran, Ph.D.
>Associate Dean
>Division of Education
>205A Fitzelle Hall
>SUNY College at Oneonta
>Oneonta, NY 13820-4015
>(607) 436-2541
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Teaching Breakfast List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
>Behalf Of Helser, Terry ([log in to unmask]<UrlBlockedError.aspx>)
>Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2011 1:12 PM
>To: [log in to unmask]<UrlBlockedError.aspx>
>Subject: Student Grading Question
>
>All interested parties,
> Can students evaluate other student's performances like team oral
>reports?
>The Faculty Handbook, which I know may not have any/full force of
>law/policy, says:
>"Students and Grading
>Students (including work study students, teaching assistants, etc.) must
>not
>be permitted to participate in any form of grading. This includes, but is
>not limited to, evaluating and/or assigning grades, posting grades,
>handling
>grade change forms or grade sheets." p. 75
>I have lab teams fill out a rubric evaluating other teams' reports and use
>them with my own to arrive at a grade for each student. I feel this is a
>valid and useful experience for all of them, but particularly for
>education
>majors. How do prospective teachers learn to evaluate their students
>without
>training and practice in education courses? Am I missing something? Seems
>like a catch 22, if the FH is taken literally.
>Cheers!
>Terry
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